If we’re speaking about disinformation, what do you mean by that term?
“Actually, there are several features that this phenomenon has.
“We can start with an example and disinformation about the town of Bucha, where the Russian Army committed a huge massacre in 2022.
“What makes it disinformation? First it is part of mass communication, so disinformation is not when I tell somebody something at the bus stop.
“So it’s something that happens on radio or television or via the internet.
“The second thing is that you are trying to manipulate the masses with that information.
“And actually manipulating is different from deceiving or deception. Of course deception is type of manipulation.
“So for example when you take the disinformation about Bucha it might be thought of as a deception, that you are trying to persuade somebody that Ukrainians actually did it.
“But sometimes you can have the aim that people will just get confused, that they lose interest in the topic; they get contradictory information so they fall into apathy.
“That’s another aim of disinformation campaigns and it’s also manipulation.
“So it’s not only about deception but also about different aims.”
It’s also about undermining the actual truth, partly by kind of flooding people with nonsense?
“With nonsense. And that might be the case when you want to get people bored by the topic, when you want people to be not interested in the war in Ukraine anymore.”
Because from their perspective it makes it harder to decide what’s true so why make any decision? They just let it wash over them.
“Yes, that’s it.
“And I think that’s the reason why you should not measure the impact of disinformation only by measuring how many people are deceived by disinformation – you should also measure how many people got bored by the information, etcetera.”
In the book you refer to a lot of English language terminology, such as confirmation bias and backfire effect. But I was interested and amused that you also use the term bullsh*t, which you say is a technical term for disinformation such as when Trump claimed that Haitian immigrants in Ohio were eating dogs and cats.
“Yes. I’m really sorry that I have to use this word on Czech Radio, but really it’s a technical term. There is a book published by Stanford University Press, I think, and written by Harry Frankfurter and it’s called On Bullshit.
“Bullsh*t is a specific type of manipulation. It’s different from lying, because when you are lying you are trying to persuade somebody about something that is not true.
“Trump says anything – part of it is true, part of it is not and that’s bullsh*tting.”
Tomáš Koblížek
“When you are bullsh*tting you just do not care if what you are saying is true or false. You’re just saying anything that fits with your aims.
“This is what Donald Trump does very often. He says anything – part of it is true, part of it is not and that’s bullsh*tting.
“He just doesn’t care if it’s true or not.”
Also hasn’t (Trump associate) Steve Bannon spoken about “flooding the zone with sh*t”?
“Yes. That’s also a very famous statement.
“It’s referring exactly to this phenomenon: just say anything and get attention – some of the information we use will be true, some will not, but what we need is to flood the zone with information and get the attention.”
Why is disinformation such a big issue at this moment in history? Am I right in thinking that it kind of accelerated during the Covid years?
“Well it’s not only Covid. I think the new wave of interest in disinformation started in 2016 when we had the victory of Donald Trump and Brexit in the UK – I think these are two big reasons why people got interested again.
“And I think today the simple answer to the question is the war, because the war is not very far from Prague – it’s a one-day drive to get to the front – and part of the war is also a disinformation and misinformation campaign.
“Russia wants you to think something about the conflict. They want you to think that it is just a defence from the side of Russia but it is of course not, it’s an aggression.”
Technology must also be hugely intensifying this whole area?
“Yes, it’s not only about the technology – it’s also about the architecture of today’s media.
“The traditional media have editors, they have some standards, but with social media you don’t have any editors, you don’t have any standards.
“We are trying to push Facebook and X to adhere to some standards, but they resist.
“And now it’s actually very easy to spread disinformation or hate speech on social media – that’s a fact.”
In this country what are the most common types of disinformation? Or what’s the most common substance of disinformation?
“I think there are very different types of disinformation. For example now we have lots of disinformation about climate change.
“I think that’s something big because there are some economic players who don’t want to adapt to this reality, because climate change exists.
“Disinformation about LGBT people or Roma people makes the lives of these people really difficult.”
Tomáš Koblížek
“So I think there is some disinformation that is supported from this side.
“But of course there is also disinformation about the war.
“And one thing that really interests me – because I am also interested in hate speech – is disinformation about minorities, about LGBT people or Roma people, which makes the lives of these people really difficult.”
About disinformation about climate change, for example, is that being produced in Czechia? Are there Czech actors, do you think, who are spreading this stuff?
“I think it is a sort of cooperation. Because as we know there are really powerful players in the US that spread disinformation about climate change.
“And we can say that part of this disinformation is taken from the US, they just translate it into the Czech context, but of course there is disinformation that is made here: Czech made, handmade disinformation (laughs).
“So I think it’s a type of mix. There are some classic anti-climate narratives that are just used, but some of them are invented here.”
And presumably it’s similar when it comes to Ukraine – a lot of it comes from Russia but other stuff is “home produced”?
“Yes. And there is also a lot of disinformation about climate change that comes from Russia.
“Because, as we know, Russia is not very happy about the Green Deal, which would make us more free regarding dependence on energy or gas coming from Russia.
“So they try to attack the Green Deal and bomb this issue.”
Are the people who are spreading disinformation in Czechia usually conscious that they are doing it? Or are those who are conscious in a minority?
“OK, so when you talk about disinformation you are saying that somebody is intentionally misleading someone else.
“But of course there are some people who believe the disinformation and in this moment we say that it is misinformation, that these people are misinformed.
“Of course there are lots of people who know that what they are saying is not true, or is a manipulation, but they have special interests that make them do that.
“And there are lots of people who believe this disinformation and I would not call them ‘disinformers’ but ‘misinformers’, because they don’t have the intention to mislead – they really believe all the myths about migration or climate change or LGBT people and they just spread it like a truth.”
You’re not a psychologist, but still, what makes people believe the really far out stuff? Like, for example, that a cabal of senior democrats are running a paedophile ring from a pizzeria in Washington.
“This is a really interesting topic and I think there are several answers to this.
“But I think the first thing you have to do is to make a distinction between believing a crazy conspiracy theory and just saying it.
“Take for example flat earthers. As we know from the research, some of these people actually do not believe that the earth is flat.
“You have to do is to make a distinction between believing a crazy conspiracy theory and just saying it.”
Tomáš Koblížek
“They are just saying it to express some distrust towards science. It’s just a way of saying, I don’t believe the scientists. It’s a sort of provocation.
“But some of them really believe it – and that’s really a question.
“They are so deeply distrusting of science that they might believe that nothing we get from science is true.”
And when people know it’s not true but still say the earth is flat, is that a form of trolling?
“That might be a form of trolling. But it might also be a form of business.
“We know that some big influencers on YouTube, for example, who talk a lot about the earth being flat just knew that this would catch attention and they have really got lots of money from this.
“They’ve made documentaries about the earth being flat and didn’t believe it, but they got lots of money from that.
“So that might also be a reason why some people say that – it’s a business model.”
Again, in the case of the claim there’s a paedophile ring of senior democrats based on a pizzeria in Washington, if it were somehow proven to the people who believe that that it was a load of nonsense, do you think at least some of them wouldn’t care? They would still be happy to believe because they hate the Democrats, for example?
“Yes, of course this is true.
“Because what matters with fact-checking – when you are presenting somebody with evidence or the facts – is not only the content of what you are saying but the person who is giving you the information.
“For example, if these people do not believe scientists and a scientist comes to them it has no value.
“So it’s really important that there are some people who still have a certain trust from these circles – and they might have an influence on them.”
When it comes to fact-checking is it worth doing in the “post-truth age”? Does it make sense to argue back, especially when, as we’ve been speaking about, there’s such an enormous ocean of nonsense out there?
“Oh yes, it’s always important to tell the truth…”
But telling the truth is different from fact-checking.
“Well (laughs), we could discuss that.
“But I think you could say that there’s a moral obligation to tell the facts (laughs). You could put it like that.
“I think it is important, but there are other things that you have to do, because, as I have just said, some people might not believe what you are saying, even though you have really strong evidence.
“For example, what you need is also something like media literacy.
“Already kids around nine or 10 years of age become the target of disinformation campaigns.”
Tomáš Koblížek
“It sounds like a cliché in words but in reality it’s not at cliché at all, because there are lots of elementary schools in the Czech Republic that do not have programmes of media literacy.
“And we know from the research that already kids around nine or 10 years of age become the target of disinformation campaigns.
“They can see something on Instagram or Facebook, and the kids should be ready, I think.”
What kind of stuff is being targeted at 10-year-olds?
“It might be something about minorities. There is some anti-LGBT propaganda that is spread so that youngsters can get in contact with it at a very low age.
“Because there are some… I don’t call them conservative circles, I think they are pseudo conservative circles, that are really upset about the ‘gender agenda’ or equality regarding gender.
“So they spread disinformation about this topic for kids of a young age.”
But you’re saying that media literacy education does work?
“Oh yes, it’s the basis I think.
“Because you really need kids that know that they should verify information.
“For us when you say you should verify information it sounds, again, like a cliché, but when you are eight or nine years old you might not know that.”
What about with older people? Is there any way you can teach an old dog, so to speak, new tricks when it comes to being more sceptical, or more thoughtful, about what they’re consuming?
“Yes, I think it’s really important to have a dialogue with anybody.
“Very often when you think about disinformation, very often people think that it’s something in your head.
“But for some people, and not only older people, it’s a lifestyle. They spend their time watching disinformation news on disinformation websites. Because they are socially isolated.
“So one thing you might do is not to persuade them about disinformation, but just to get them out of this kind of life – just take them to the cinema, for example (laughs).”
So I’ll have to take some of my weird neighbours to the cinema.
“(Laughs) I’m just debating, you have to do lots of things, but I’m just trying to say that disinformation is also a lifestyle.”
What about regulation? Is regulation in this country sufficient at present? I know hate speech is one of your areas of expertise and we already have hate speech laws. And I guess the state does take some measures against disinformation, for example banning a number of Russian propaganda websites soon after the full-scale invasion of Ukraine. Are the authorities doing enough, do you feel?
“Yes, there’s a huge debate about this in the Czech Republic right now.
“Because there has been a difference between what the government was saying and what the government really did.
“For some people, and not only older people, it’s a lifestyle.”
Tomáš Koblížek
“Our government was presenting itself as fighters against disinformation, but now we have found out – thanks to Voxpot, a group of journalists – that, for example, the government knew about some strong disinformation campaigns and did nothing.
“So we could do more.”
But surely the next government will do less? If you see the parties that are heading towards a coalition, they would be unlikely to encourage regulation, surely?
“Well, we will see. We people who are working in this domain should persuade any politicians from the next government that this is an important topic.
“Actually it doesn’t depend if you are right-wing or left-wing – you want to have good information, so you should care about the information environment, because it might also affect your decisions.”
One could easily imagine the situation regarding disinformation will only intensify in future. But what do you think looking forwards? Do you see any grounds for optimism for liberals, for example, or for people who wish to live in a society where truth is actually acknowledged as truth?
“Maybe this will sound really crazy, but I’m a big optimist.
“I think it’s not good to be too apocalyptic about disinformation.
“We always imagine it as a giant and we cannot really do anything.
“I think disinformation is as big as we are, but now we have a tendency to only observe it, to do nothing.
“But we know there are lots of examples from the world where we see that you can fight disinformation very effectively.
“A good example is Finland, where actually kids already at elementary school learn about the difference between misinformation and disinformation and about verifying sources – and then you can see that Finland is the top country regarding resistance against disinformation.
“So it’s difficult but it’s doable, and I believe that we will do it also one day.”
Obviously people today consume media differently than they did even five or 10 years ago. But is there any onus on media organisations to present news differently, or to do something differently so they take more of people’s attention and people are less drawn to the margins?
“One thing that the media could do, or some journalists could do (laughs), is for example not to label people who believe disinformation.
“For example, I use the word disinformation quite often, but I would never use the word ‘disinformer’, because you are just labelling somebody as a person who will always believe this (laughs) bullsh*t, let’s say.
“So perhaps we should talk about disinformation but we should stop labelling people, or groups, as groups that are… in Czech we use the word ‘dezolát’.”
It’s something like “deplorable”, as Hillary Clinton called them – it’s comparable.
“Yes. Just stop using this, because then the people get angry at you and dialogue stops. So this is one thing that we could stop doing.”
That means kind of keeping a door open for these people, if they want to stop being in that world – so they can return to more mainstream outlooks?
“The first thing you can do is to say, This is disinformation for this and this reason, we have evidence for that, and I think you believe it because of this and this reason – am I right?
“One thing that the media could do is not to label people who believe disinformation.”
Tomáš Koblížek
“I think this is the way we can start a conversation. It’s just better than labelling somebody with bad words.”
Do you have conversations with your neighbours or others about the things we’re speaking about?
“I don’t have so many people around me who would really believe major disinformation.
“But I know about these cases and I know that it’s very hard.
“But we have to believe (laughs) – and I believe we will see results.”
I wanted to end this conversation with a little bit about philosophy itself. You are a philosopher of language and it’s not often I get to interview a philosopher. Is there respect for your field in Czechia, do you feel?
“Actually there was a survey lately about the relationship of society towards philosophy, or what people think about philosophy, and I think 40 percent of people had a certain respect for philosophers.
“But I think we could work on this a little bit more.
“I think the problem is that in the Czech Republic people are still too interested in philosophical personalities.
“And for example when you go to France people are just interested in philosophical topics – and they don’t care too much about who communicates them.
“So I think this might change, because we have so many experts on very difficult questions like euthanasia, but they don’t get into the media very often.
“And I think that might get philosophy much more popular.”
Way back in the mists of time, I myself studied philosophy. One thing we were told at my university was that the term philosopher shouldn’t be overused, that it doesn’t apply to anybody who has a philosophy degree or maybe even teaches the subject. It should be somebody who contributes to philosophy. But in this country I see some people calling themselves philosophers and I’m thinking, Are they really one? Do you know what I mean?
“I’m quite liberal about the word philosopher. If you want to call yourself a philosopher you can – I have nothing against it.
“But for me what philosophers do is that they bring strong arguments. And what makes you a good philosopher is that you bring a strong argument about something, like for example freedom of speech or how to define lying.
“If you bring some interesting definition and you persuade others with your arguments then you are a philosopher, because these are really difficult topics.
“So many people have written about them, so if you bring something new, and if you bring some arguments, well, that would be good (laughs).”
Was Václav Havel a philosopher? He’s always described as one, but I don’t know if he was.
“You know, there’s something about Václav Havel. Because some people say (laughs) – “some people say” is such a funny phrase – that he was not really a philosopher; he was not a professional philosopher.
“But, for example, he wrote The Power of the Powerless, which I think is one of the most cited philosophical works in the history of Czech contemporary philosophy.
“How many contemporary philosophers have a book like this, cited so much?
“So he has this achievement. And of course he had very interesting philosophical arguments about propaganda, thoughts that belong to political philosophy, so to me he was a really good, interesting philosopher.”
For you who is the greatest or the most significant Czech philosopher?
“Oh, I don’t do these rankings (laughs). I’m sorry.
“But there are some interesting personalities that I admire. For example one of my teachers, who is not very well known to the public – his name is Pavel Kouba.
“In the 1990s he wrote a book on Nietzsche that wasn’t only influential here – it was also translated into German and Spanish.
“He’s somebody who really had an influence on me and I really like his way of thinking, let’s say. But there are also others.”
Tomáš Koblížek works at the Institute of Philosophy of the Czech Academy of Sciences and with Ask the Scientist project.
